"the words of wisdom often bear a striking resemblance to those spoken by tired elders"

RuebaiYat: how are you doing?
The Guru: been up irc'ing all night.  time to code deliriously
The Guru: been doing alot of clubs this past 4 day wkd
RuebaiYat: cool man
RuebaiYat: how was your 4th of july?
The Guru: i watched the fireworks at the national monument
The Guru: 350k ppl there
RuebaiYat: wow
* RuebaiYat smiles
The Guru: has a blast
The Guru: went clubbing afterwards
RuebaiYat: hehhe
RuebaiYat: man, you are living the single life ! :)
The Guru: im a freak
The Guru: lalala
The Guru: so what
The Guru: you got a female?
RuebaiYat: nope
The Guru: me niether
The Guru: it rox
The Guru: no worries
The Guru: no whore pains
RuebaiYat: yah man

The Guru: if you want code economy learn stl.  
otherwise dont inflict childish motivations on your design
RuebaiYat: i have to buy a book on STL. 
i some docs on templates..easy it seems.. but i think stl is much larger..
The Guru: stl is like ramming yer head into a wall
The Guru: i highly recommend it
RuebaiYat: hahah
RuebaiYat: i saw a good stl book at the store only 43$
The Guru: i've taken to java 
The Guru: it manages garbage collection.  
RuebaiYat: java man!
* RuebaiYat grins..
RuebaiYat: cus it's interpreted..
RuebaiYat: ummmm
RuebaiYat: i think you called it "just in time " code
The Guru: well, they've made a just-in-time compiler that compiles 
with optimizations
The Guru: so its about as fast as c
RuebaiYat: uh oh!
* RuebaiYat frowns..
RuebaiYat: damn !
RuebaiYat: another language to learn!
* RuebaiYat sighs..
The Guru: the only thing C++ does better than java is ommmiting the
 OS wrapper class 
The Guru: and permitting templates and pointers

RuebaiYat: how long does it take to learn java?
The Guru: its hard toi judge someone else's adaptability
The Guru: I've gone thru all the pain of C++ the ahrd way to get to
 the elegance.
RuebaiYat: elegance?
The Guru: I know everything they attempt to provide with the java
 virtual machine, cuz I'd have to write my own components were it not 
present.

The Guru: so the langauge is a subset.
RuebaiYat: good.
* RuebaiYat smiles..
RuebaiYat: subset languages are easier to learn
* RuebaiYat whews... :)
The Guru: it has no macros
The Guru: no templates
The Guru: no pointers
RuebaiYat: jeeze..almost like basic
The Guru: no header files
The Guru: I miss templates
The Guru: but I'll live

RuebaiYat:  is most  software written using templates?
The Guru: nope. templates are rare in real world
RuebaiYat: hmm
RuebaiYat: why do you use them? just for speed coding?
The Guru: they are not OO
The Guru: they are more like pattern, advanced macro.  
its a paradigm apart from OO, it makes C++ blurred for distinction, 
it violates an OO direction
RuebaiYat: hmm
RuebaiYat: ive seen template classes
The Guru: but its lightyears ahead of C++ early binding

RuebaiYat: wow..im impressed it's like containers of stuff
The Guru: stl has containers.  they serve to store in defined orders.  
they have iterators, they server to access the container data. 
they do some funky stuff rooted in binary mathematics that
goes to the core of a bit and byte to enable flywight factories an
The Guru: anywhere you have an expanse of memory
RuebaiYat: YUM! that sounds like ~good~ reading!

The Guru: string:  is as follows in stl:
RuebaiYat: talen: i have some broken code for a t3 line telnet client :)
The Guru: vector 
The Guru: typedef vector string;  string hahahaha ="hahahaha";
RuebaiYat: vector 
RuebaiYat:  what is a vector? a pointer?
The Guru: nope
The Guru: read this, its what i learned from. its kind of awesome. 
it predates stl 
The Guru: http://noel.feld.cvut.cz/cgi-bin/gnuinfo/libg++/Top
The Guru: read thru that
The Guru: it does very well to explain a template of containers, 
algorithms, and show "WHY" you would evolve into building function classes
The Guru: and iterators
RuebaiYat: ok

The Guru: Four subclasses of Plexes are supported:
 A `FPlex' is a Plex that may only grow or shrink within declared bounds; 
an `XPlex' may dynamically grow or shrink without bounds;
 an `RPlex' is the same as an `XPlex' but better supports indexing with 
poor lo
The Guru: teh XPlex shows how far they went to segregate algorithms 
for performance tuning
The Guru: rather Plex parent
RuebaiYat: hmm
RuebaiYat: definite reading material
The Guru: pnlibG++.info does more to explain the reasons for STL's
 design and capabilites than any STL docs I've yet read
The Guru: `VStack' 
The Guru: implement fixed sized stacks via arrays. 
The Guru: `XPStack' 
The Guru: implement dynamically-sized stacks via XPlexes. 
The Guru: `SLStack' 
The Guru: implement dynamically-size stacks via linked lists. 
The Guru: if you take a breakdown of their derivations of Stack 
base classs, they sort of illustrate where you can change the word "via"
and insert "using the ___ function class"
The Guru: C++ is faster in teh end
The Guru: when you use templates and inline functions, 
and goes easy on the inheritance depth, you have alot less overhead
The Guru: and alot more inline assembler

RuebaiYat: ok...
RuebaiYat: sounds like STL is needed, if i am going to advance farther
 than windoze coding
The Guru: the understanding of alot of really beautiful mathematical
 algorithms and organizations has roots in C level code, the beauty and
 stress of their importance has been lost among the OO hype, 
I think libG++ is the pinnacle of balance where the two meee

RuebaiYat: where what two meet?
RuebaiYat: oo and c? :)
The Guru: OO decoupling and rich algorithm selection provide 
for containers with teh best of both, the smallest, and cleanest, 
until you get to STL, which is like so compressed there is no room 
to understand the middle ground between algorithm, OO, and efficie
The Guru: Btrees, splaytrees, hashtables, LL's 
The Guru: they have mathematicla profiles 
The Guru: and offshoots

RuebaiYat: you mean STL has those structures already taken care of?!
The Guru: and varaints galore
The Guru: sort of
The Guru: STL decouples some elements too far to remain visibly 
the same thing
The Guru: for instance, STL has no implicit 'sorted' cotnainer
The Guru: but it gives you container.sort(functionclass Comparator)  
The Guru: whereas a BTree Container Class would always be sorted,
 but you would pay for sorting at every insertion and substraction
RuebaiYat: yes

RuebaiYat: doesnt the power make you feel like god? :)
The Guru: a function class is like class GreaterThan
{static bool operator()(T a,T b){return a b }};
The Guru: STL gives you tools to make any equivalent algorthim
 container class found in 1 libG++ class.  in the least possible amount
 of code. but the number of components is more than libg++ 1 component
The Guru: yeah
The Guru: i have had athe god trip fora  few years now :)

RuebaiYat: here is my plan..tell me what you think.
RuebaiYat: ready?
The Guru: yeh
RuebaiYat: buy book on OLE api, OLE controls
RuebaiYat: study them, compleete inside ole.
RuebaiYat: buy win32 api
RuebaiYat: book
RuebaiYat: ..i think those will complete my windoze training.
RuebaiYat: estimated time about 2 months
The Guru: nope
The Guru: you aint been thru customers yet
RuebaiYat: nope?
RuebaiYat: oh..
RuebaiYat: well dont i have enough books..?
RuebaiYat: ah yes, customers..
RuebaiYat: :)
The Guru: a good feeling is knowing you dont have time or 
inclination to read all the books you can afford
RuebaiYat: hehhe
RuebaiYat: well after 2 months..then i will buy book on stl and complete 
that..install djgpp and add the libg++ 
RuebaiYat: and then coast..reading stl, coding shit, reading on win32api,
control till january..
RuebaiYat: then in january i will redo m resume, as per your instructions
RuebaiYat: and put it on the newsgroups
The Guru: if you've got the time, to spend. 
RuebaiYat: and hopefully get a part time job somewhere
The Guru: try this
RuebaiYat: i would like to get my degree in comp sci.
The Guru: read the first sentence of each paragraph of the rest of
 your books, look for a job now.  
RuebaiYat: now?
The Guru: right now, you don't have the battle with failure to 
make you leaner
* RuebaiYat sighs..
The Guru: oh, then by all means, study leisurely, or submit yourself 
to work for free or stock options
RuebaiYat: ive had to make a chioce between consulting now or degree+part 
time work.
The Guru: if you have the option, I highly reccomend school 
on a scholarship
The Guru: i blew my chacne, i had figured you blew yours
RuebaiYat: i should be ready to field most windows solutions by the end
 of september :)
RuebaiYat: by december i should have stl covered and that libg++ 
The Guru: unless you have formerly consulting teachers, you'll eat
 them for lunch
The Guru: libg++ is 45 minutes
* RuebaiYat sighs..
The Guru: jut that info file is all you need to know, the actual 
algorithms are always available somewhere in code form
RuebaiYat: im scared that i wont have anyone to bounce this shit off of
 anyone..and ill come up with some BOGUS conclusions..
The Guru: knowing the place of bag, plex, map, list, vector, stack,
 q, dq, and whichever i forgot is the foundation of all container logic, 
all sophistited OO translates back to the container roots 
* RuebaiYat smiles..
* RuebaiYat grins... damn i wnat to buy that stl book!
* RuebaiYat hehehs
RuebaiYat: i have it online dox on my msvc++ disc
The Guru: nlessee
RuebaiYat: ? nlessee?
The Guru: nahh, read libg++.info first.  STL is just trying to 
tell you point blank what libg++ illustrates better.
The Guru: STL is compressed as hell, if you start trying to
 grok the peices without knowing what they look like in later-binding 
analogies, you'll spend 4 times the time understanding from a russian
 mathematician's perspective.  and you'll be pigeonholes
RuebaiYat: hmm OK...
The Guru: pigeonholed even
RuebaiYat: heheh
The Guru: pussywhipped into using templates of efficiency you'll
 never convince a project manager to tackle, cuz it scares most.  
The Guru: imagine the population of #c/#C++ philosophies 
translating to the realworld Software Engineering environ... 
RuebaiYat: damn...i feel like the hill ive been climbing has grown...
 IMmmensely
The Guru: oh, you mean you see things that  you could never 
convince others they stand on?
RuebaiYat: ummmm they get eaten alive
RuebaiYat: not yet!
* RuebaiYat grins..
RuebaiYat: i havent climbed base the base(unlike you)
RuebaiYat: base[1]=past
RuebaiYat: but im sure i will
The Guru: i mean, there are 20 or so hootin #C hackers, perhaps
 10 or so #java hacks who have 0 OO, and a few #C++ stragglers too 
small to keep an organization held up overnight....  the real world
 very much resembles the same distribution
RuebaiYat: hootin==?
RuebaiYat: 0==?
RuebaiYat: stragglers==?
The Guru: zero OO foundation
The Guru: /*changed by request of The Guru*/ is the only person to
 date I've seen who offers any kind of C++ insight
RuebaiYat: wait a min!
The Guru: like he's been thru the bad-design grinder enough to know
 better

RuebaiYat: soooo..
RuebaiYat: here it is..
RuebaiYat: first there is c 
RuebaiYat: and there are alot of those coders around
RuebaiYat: but projects overwhelm the langauges abilty..
RuebaiYat: and there is C++
RuebaiYat: and there are a few of those coders around too..
RuebaiYat: but some projects can even overwhelm C++....so...
RuebaiYat: something is needed to save the world
RuebaiYat: but switching languages is NOT an option..
The Guru: java 
RuebaiYat: so stl is born
RuebaiYat: am i right?
The Guru: STL is a unification of the common seen need for a standard
 container interface
* RuebaiYat sighs... damn i thought i almost had "insight" as to what is
 ~truly~ going on..
The Guru: both are correct

RuebaiYat: there are certain tools needed in order for an OO programmer to 
unbind himself from the fetters of c++, but still use c++
The Guru: STL does not do what java can do, simplify, and protect 
from pointers, but C++ does have template spazcases who got  aniche in
 the C++ spec and relaxed early binding

RuebaiYat: i thought it was design patterns..
The Guru: it's more like booch and omt
The Guru: smalltalk, obj-c 
The Guru: obj-c is neat
The Guru: you cannot skip from c+|+ to design patterns
The Guru: after the notations comes teh patterns
RuebaiYat: i saw a cool book on OMT in the books store :)
The Guru: I've got a patterns book i picked up the other day, 
which is all about parrellell and distributed OO project management, 
AT&T's most recent out-take on high-level organization of software
 engineering
The Guru: the top of the pattern mountain is a book called 
"The timeless way of building"
The Guru: by Alxander
The Guru: its about architectures and cities and buildings and the
 interaction over time
The Guru: from there, you've hit raw bhuda
The Guru: there is a pattern in this most recent book i collected, 
called the solo virtuoso.  
The Guru: it sorta sez, some folks are just so damned capable of 
solving shit that you can give them small projects by themselves and throw
 the team management shit out the window expcept for review deadlines 
The Guru: which means, they can provide, the design, the notation
 for the analysis and design, the code, and the testing
The Guru: i guess, anyone who can attempt to put their neck on that 
chopping block, has the fallback comfort of being only human, has the ego 
expansion of being gold, and will get a good paycheck :)
The Guru: team m\echanics apply in a big way
The Guru: as a team increases in size, communication degrades
The Guru: keeping this in mind, it sez there is a spread of 20 to 1
 between developers, so if they discern 10 to be an optimum number, it 
still may not equate to two of the best
The Guru: (20 to 1 as far as usefulness goes)
The Guru: so if you wanna look at a cross-section of the total 
picture of software engineering, including perl, basic, all the java, c++,
 delphi, dbase, ad naus, the virtuoso C++/smalltalk/java engineer that has 
all the levels in balance is a percentage of a p

RuebaiYat: tell me..do you really remember everything you read?
The Guru: perc entage
The Guru: no freekin way
The Guru: just get a good idea where i can come back to stuff
The Guru: i have met a couple coders that can remember everything 
they read, or a shitload more than me, they were unimaginitive

The Guru: they performed sequences of operations as per a textbook 
would instruct, they practice CYOA reall good

RuebaiYat: CYOA?
The Guru: (cover your own ass)
The Guru: i think the balance is more important to gainign a big 
understanding , then a tunnelvision perspective to funnel wide-spectrum 
imagination thru

RuebaiYat: the mechanics i find..can be looked up on demand, sometimes.
The Guru: how could i have told you I've known about libg++ for two
 years before i even met you, when you were attempting to grasp mfc...
The Guru: I dont grasp ole, but i recall the chapters i didnt grasp,
 the terminology i didn't understand then comes into play in java alot, 
names, references, marshalling, and it all clicks, perspective #2 was all 
it took
The Guru: to be quite honest, I'm not really worried about you, I
 can expose you to stuff, you can specialize and find balance in what fits
 your needs best, as your grip tightens in any single area the others are 
pulled tighter anyways, knowing you've been exp
The Guru: exposed 
The Guru: i have a freind who can teach you all about templates 
and STL better than anyone on earth, email /*deleted as per The Guru*/ and 
ask for a grip on STL
The Guru: say I told you to.
The Guru: He'll give it to you, him and me talk the same language
The Guru: hmmm sad
The Guru: lonely is fairer term
The Guru: I know I'm in a fraction of a percent 

RuebaiYat: lonely...yeah..i think that is true.
The Guru: so it comes with the territory i think
The Guru: you can be in a crowd of software engineers, only 2, 
maybe one, will understand your higher thinking.
The Guru: design patterns mailing list was under a thousand, 
as of January.
The Guru: in fact, it was something like 300
RuebaiYat: mailing list!
The Guru: im not on it, I wasn't even aware of it.  
* RuebaiYat smiles
RuebaiYat: OH!
RuebaiYat: wait..
RuebaiYat: there is a mfc mailing list also
RuebaiYat: do you want it?
The Guru: here's the funny part about me,
 ask /*deleted as per The Guru*/ 
The Guru: nope, i dont want it, im not on anyones mailing lsits
RuebaiYat: so i ask /*deleted as per The Guru*/ for the design patterns
 mailing list?
RuebaiYat: ask /*deleted as per The Guru*/ about? :)
The Guru: me not reading email :)
RuebaiYat: ok.
RuebaiYat: im curious..what do most software designers talk about
 them..if not the c00l stuff like stl or that libg++ or design patterns 
or omt or booch? :)
The Guru: i donno where you get teh dp mailing list
The Guru: lessee, 
The Guru: nothing abstracted
The Guru:  good.  its just that simple.
The Guru:  There are lots of API's to ther 
server. I have an API book.
The Guru:  Wow. I might start to love Java.
 So far I've only liked it :)
The Guru:  its cool.  i can write you a 
multithreaded socket server in a page
The Guru:   of code off the top of my head.  A very rich API
The Guru: a guy here is into python
The Guru: some crazy language like m4
The Guru: and perl and sh
The Guru: and rexx
The Guru: lalalalalaalaa
The Guru: its all crazy

RuebaiYat: hmmm
The Guru: :)
RuebaiYat: sounds like those software designers have actual ~real~ time 
work under their belts..
RuebaiYat: heheh something that cant be learned from books..
The Guru: i envy u in having alll taht time to study and code ansd
 sleep
RuebaiYat: no...
RuebaiYat: i only sleep 5 hours a day
RuebaiYat: i dont code anything
RuebaiYat: i just read.
* RuebaiYat shrugs..

* RuebaiYat has a broken t3 telnet client for unix
The Guru: t3 telnet client?
RuebaiYat: i think
RuebaiYat: let me get it
The Guru: why do you say its t3 ?
RuebaiYat: it was in the source..
RuebaiYat: of course i dont know if it is or isnt
RuebaiYat: here is what it says in the source
RuebaiYat: * T3 - A Fast client with T3 upload\download fascillities.
 *  * * Little fixes & enhancements by cyanide&darkwave. *

The Guru: ahh
The Guru: ica n port it for you
* RuebaiYat shrugs..that should keep anyone busy for a long time.
* RuebaiYat oops and of course I spoke too soon in the presence of
 /*deleted as per The Guru*/
RuebaiYat: :)
RuebaiYat: heheh
The Guru: dcc 
RuebaiYat: ok
RuebaiYat: you got it :)
The Guru: this won't take me very long
The Guru: you'll have to fix up the includes
RuebaiYat: what are you porting it to?
The Guru: winsock i presume
RuebaiYat: oh ok
The Guru: fix the includes 
The Guru: and it oughta begin chuggin 
The Guru: as a text app
RuebaiYat: fix the includes means....add the necessary winsock.lib 
and headers?
RuebaiYat: ok dcc it :)